# ICBC

> Alpha governed public record. Unknown, unavailable, and unpublished values are never inferred as zero.

## Record

| Field | Value |
| --- | --- |
| Representation | alpha-profile-markdown-v4 |
| Protocol | Alpha Governance Facts Protocol 0.1 |
| Schema | alpha.governance.entity.public.v1 |
| Record version | public-1:d751713988987e9331980363e24189ce:ro-d751713988987e9331980363e24189ce |
| Governance record representation | alpha-governance-record-v2 |
| Canonical entity | alpha:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2 |
| Entity type | Company |
| Canonical URL | https://registry.alpha.ac/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398 |
| Publication | PUBLISHED |
| Verification | source_reported |
| Verification schema | alpha-verification-states-v1 |
| Ownership | unclaimed |
| Published claims | 17 |
| Claims under review | 1 |
| Evidence records | 3 |
| Conflicts | 0 |
| Conflicts in internal review | 0 |
| Observed | 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00 |
| Last reviewed | 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00 |

## Identity

- Legal name: ICBC
- Display name: ICBC

## Alpha Governance Record

| Field | Value |
| --- | --- |
| Governance Record schema | alpha-governance-record-v2 |
| Ontology | alpha-governance-ontology-v1 |
| Record version | public-1:d751713988987e9331980363e24189ce:ro-d751713988987e9331980363e24189ce |
| As of | 2026-10-22T22:59:32.52049+00:00 |
| Completeness | 0.364 |
| Record Quality | 0.763 |
| Directors | 13 |
| Committees | 1 |
| Governance events | 18 |
| Entity class | public_company |

## Section coverage

| Section | State |
| --- | --- |
| identity | PUBLISHED |
| corporate_structure | NOT_REVIEWED |
| board | PUBLISHED |
| committees | PUBLISHED |
| leadership | NOT_REVIEWED |
| ownership | NOT_REVIEWED |
| financials | NOT_REVIEWED |
| capital_structure | PUBLISHED |
| compensation | NOT_REVIEWED |
| governance | NOT_REVIEWED |
| shareholder_governance | NOT_REVIEWED |
| audit | NOT_REVIEWED |
| legal | NOT_REVIEWED |
| risk | NOT_REVIEWED |
| cyber | NOT_REVIEWED |
| ai_governance | NOT_REVIEWED |
| agent_governance | RESTRICTED |
| markets_external | NOT_REVIEWED |
| events | PUBLISHED |
| relationships | PUBLISHED |
| assessments | PUBLISHED |
| evidence | PUBLISHED |

## Board

- Fang Liu: Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: false. Since: 2026-06-26. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:6
- Guan Ting Chen: Independent Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: true. Since: 2024-11-29. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:7
- Herbert Walter: Independent Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: true. Since: 2024-03-08. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:8
- Hong Tao Duan: Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: false. Since: 2025-10-30. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:9
- Jing Wu Wang: Senior Executive Vice President, Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: false. Since: 2021-09-15. Committees: Executive Director (member). claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:10
- Jun Liu: Vice Chairman and President, Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: false. Since: 2024-06-28. Committees: Executive Director (chair). claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:11
- Kam Hung Lawrence Lee: Independent Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: true. Since: 2026-01-15. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:12
- Lin Liao: Chairman, Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: false. Since: 2020-07-30. Committees: Executive Director (chair). claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:5
- Man Tao Zhong: Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: false. Since: 2024-09-27. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:13
- Murray Horn: Independent Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: true. Since: 2024-08-08. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:14
- Tak Lam Norman Chan: Independent Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: true. Since: 2022-09-22. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:15
- Wei Ping Li: Independent Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: true. Since: 2025-02-25. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:16
- Yang Dong: Non Executive Director. Status: current. Independent: false. Since: 2022-01-14. claim_id=alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:17

## Committees

- Executive Director (executive). Chair: Jun Liu. Members: Lin Liao (chair, current); Jing Wu Wang (member, current); Jun Liu (chair, current). committee_id=alpha:committee:icbc-xhkg-01398:executive-director

## Governance events

- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Fang Liu seat on ICBC, effective 2026-06-26. Effective: 2026-06-26. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:xoki341uxvn2k
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Kam Hung Lawrence Lee seat on ICBC, effective 2026-01-15. Effective: 2026-01-15. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:9wvy2ct65f4y
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Hong Tao Duan seat on ICBC, effective 2025-10-30. Effective: 2025-10-30. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:1hpqvqe19x7yis
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Wei Ping Li seat on ICBC, effective 2025-02-25. Effective: 2025-02-25. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:1vs6jlf6lizit
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Guan Ting Chen seat on ICBC, effective 2024-11-29. Effective: 2024-11-29. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:q9h3havig63y
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Man Tao Zhong seat on ICBC, effective 2024-09-27. Effective: 2024-09-27. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:wna3byntfxig
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Murray Horn seat on ICBC, effective 2024-08-08. Effective: 2024-08-08. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:apgfup16e3m8z
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Jun Liu seat on ICBC, effective 2024-06-28. Effective: 2024-06-28. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:pzztr91geilah
- COMMITTEE_CHAIR_CHANGED: Jun Liu chairs Executive Director, effective 2024-06-28. Effective: 2024-06-28. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:dizkx1ac2c1
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Herbert Walter seat on ICBC, effective 2024-03-08. Effective: 2024-03-08. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:de0n4j1kfrjmt
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Tak Lam Norman Chan seat on ICBC, effective 2022-09-22. Effective: 2022-09-22. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:a3fkftw9pd9t
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Yang Dong seat on ICBC, effective 2022-01-14. Effective: 2022-01-14. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:toyja2khhmku
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Jing Wu Wang seat on ICBC, effective 2021-09-15. Effective: 2021-09-15. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:1wzoc8i18qwje8
- COMMITTEE_MEMBER_ADDED: Jing Wu Wang member of Executive Director, effective 2021-09-15. Effective: 2021-09-15. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:1m73yk81cgxlb8
- DIRECTOR_APPOINTED: Lin Liao seat on ICBC, effective 2020-07-30. Effective: 2020-07-30. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:1kueekta68eer
- BOARD_CHAIR_CHANGED: Lin Liao chairs board ICBC, effective 2020-07-30. Effective: 2020-07-30. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:rlfkx7v1q74n
- COMMITTEE_CREATED: Executive Director committee of ICBC, effective 2020-07-30. Effective: 2020-07-30. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:1s0a4bbgbffid
- COMMITTEE_CHAIR_CHANGED: Lin Liao chairs Executive Director, effective 2020-07-30. Effective: 2020-07-30. Detected: 2026-09-02T02:35:12.154067+00:00. event_id=alpha:event:transition:5evvmt6kexkj

## Scoped resources

- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/identity` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=identity
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/corporate-structure` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=corporate-structure
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/board` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=board
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/committees` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=committees
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/leadership` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=leadership
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/ownership` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=ownership
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/financials` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=financials
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/capital-structure` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=capital-structure
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/compensation` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=compensation
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/governance` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=governance
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/shareholder-governance` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=shareholder-governance
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/audit` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=audit
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/legal` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=legal
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/risk` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=risk
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/cyber` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=cyber
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/ai-governance` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=ai-governance
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/agents` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=agents
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/ecosystem` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=ecosystem
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/events` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=events
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/relationships` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=relationships
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/assessments` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=assessments
- `alpha://company/icbc-xhkg-01398/evidence` (contract): https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record&section=evidence

## Role modules

- NOT_ASSERTED

## Attention

- NO_RECORDS_FOUND

## Committee data

- NO_RECORDS_FOUND

## Leadership

- Lin Liao: Chairman, Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:5. Valid from: 2020-07-30. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Fang Liu: Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:6. Valid from: 2026-06-26. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Guan Ting Chen: Independent Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:7. Valid from: 2024-11-29. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Herbert Walter: Independent Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:8. Valid from: 2024-03-08. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Hong Tao Duan: Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:9. Valid from: 2025-10-30. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Jing Wu Wang: Senior Executive Vice President, Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:10. Valid from: 2021-09-15. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:b146db0cc2633a910fbb07a5e0fd869086cc399f88ebbfa2402c5c7d3fdf0fbf.
- Jun Liu: Vice Chairman and President, Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:11. Valid from: 2024-06-28. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:b146db0cc2633a910fbb07a5e0fd869086cc399f88ebbfa2402c5c7d3fdf0fbf.
- Kam Hung Lawrence Lee: Independent Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:12. Valid from: 2026-01-15. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Man Tao Zhong: Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:13. Valid from: 2024-09-27. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Murray Horn: Independent Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:14. Valid from: 2024-08-08. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Tak Lam Norman Chan: Independent Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:15. Valid from: 2022-09-22. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Wei Ping Li: Independent Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:16. Valid from: 2025-02-25. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.
- Yang Dong: Non Executive Director. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:leadership_role:17. Valid from: 2022-01-14. Valid to: NOT_ASSERTED. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde.

## Roles

- PUBLISHED

## Governance

- NOT_ASSERTED

## Board committees

- PUBLISHED

## Financials

- NOT_ASSERTED

## Workforce

- NOT_ASSERTED

## Market and index context

- PUBLISHED

## Legal Name

- ICBC. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:legal_name:1. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:1188c7a8cf9cc1297826752c65fbddfc8d267a72b3f1da62dd7137048b2251f4.

## Entity Status

- Public listing published. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:entity_status:3. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:1188c7a8cf9cc1297826752c65fbddfc8d267a72b3f1da62dd7137048b2251f4.

## Published Fact

- HK. Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:published_fact:4. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:1188c7a8cf9cc1297826752c65fbddfc8d267a72b3f1da62dd7137048b2251f4.

## Security Listing

- 01398.HK (HKEX). Claim: alpha:claim:company:a205535c-2481-4765-becb-a52fb98adca2:security_listing:18. Publication: PUBLISHED. Verification: source_reported. Assertion: source_reported. Evidence: alpha:projection-evidence:1188c7a8cf9cc1297826752c65fbddfc8d267a72b3f1da62dd7137048b2251f4.

## Coverage states

| Field | Value |
| --- | --- |
| Identity | PUBLISHED |
| Business | PUBLISHED |
| Leadership | PUBLISHED |
| Board and committees | PUBLISHED |
| Governance | NOT_ASSERTED |
| Financials | NOT_ASSERTED |
| Workforce | NOT_ASSERTED |
| Ownership | NOT_ASSERTED |
| Ratings | NOT_PUBLISHED |
| Market and index context | PUBLISHED |

## Public sources

- alpha:projection-evidence:1188c7a8cf9cc1297826752c65fbddfc8d267a72b3f1da62dd7137048b2251f4: [Alpha canonical company public projection](https://www.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398).
- alpha:projection-evidence:document:11773578e972694f910a2a53aa13cd25f978d551d3a6b3bd29262b3b83ba3cde: [HKEXNEWS List of Directors / issuer IR](https://www3.hkexnews.hk/reports/dirsearch/dirlist/Documents/Director_List.xlsx).
- alpha:projection-evidence:document:b146db0cc2633a910fbb07a5e0fd869086cc399f88ebbfa2402c5c7d3fdf0fbf: [HKEXNEWS List of Directors / issuer IR](https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2026/0626/2026062602033.pdf).

## Rights

| Field | Value |
| --- | --- |
| public_retrieval | allowed |
| agent_retrieval | allowed |
| redistribution | not_granted |
| model_training | not_granted |
| commercial_use | not_specified |
| relationship_pathfinding | not_granted |
| direct_contact | not_granted |

## Limitations

- Absence of a leadership role, committee, or disclosure is not evidence that it does not exist.
- Only explicitly published canonical company identity and current confirmed public roles are included.
- Absence of a board, committee, executive, listing, or claim is not evidence that it does not exist.
- Public retrieval does not grant redistribution, model-training, direct-contact, or relationship-pathfinding rights.
- This Company Profile is an identity and evidence record, not an Alpha rating.

## Alternate representations

- [Canonical profile](https://registry.alpha.ac/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398)
- [Public Markdown](https://registry.alpha.ac/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398.md)
- [Public JSON](https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=record)
- [JSON-LD](https://registry.alpha.ac/api/public/companies/icbc-xhkg-01398?format=jsonld)
- MCP resource: `alpha://companies/icbc-xhkg-01398` at https://mcp.alpha.ac/mcp


## Connected governance records

Only explicitly published, rights-cleared records. Missing records do not establish absence, safety, or complete coverage.

## Critical-risk oversight

Snapshot as of 2026-10-22T22:59:32.275552+00:00; recorded 2026-10-22T22:59:32.275552+00:00. Every published assignment for this snapshot is listed.
Only explicitly reviewed, rights-cleared assignments in effect on the as-of date, in the company's own wording.
An assignment shows where oversight is placed, not whether it is effective. Missing records do not establish absence.